Paco Sevilla, author of Queen of the Gypsies: The Life and Legend of Carmen Amaya
+ March 2004
Paco Sevilla is a professional flamenco guitarist with a long career as a soloist and accompanist for many of flamenco's top artists--among them the great Carmen Mora and Spain's top teacher, Manolo Marin. He is also highly regarded as a flamencologist and teacher, and for twelve years he published and wrote for the flamenco magazine, Jaleo. His articles have also appeared in Guitar and Lute, The Journal of Flamenco Artistry, Flamenco International Magazine (England), Sevilla Flamenca (Spain), and Flamenco (Germany). He also co-wrote the booklet for the CD collection, Duende, along with Spanish flamencologist Balbino Gutierrez and flamenco record producer Ricardo Pachon. He is now concentrating on writing books. "Queen of the Gypsies, the Life and Legend of Carmen Amaya" and "Paco de Lucia, a New Tradition for the Flamenco Guitar" are fascinating accounts of two of flamenco's greatest artists. The books are full of stories and vignettes of both the aritsts and their flamenco worlds. Both books are available through Sevilla Press.
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Interview with Paco Sevilla and Jason Engelund
JASON ENGELUND: How did you come to flamenco?
PACO SEVILLA: I first picked up the guitar in my mid-teens. A couple of years later, in the late '60s, I went to Spain for a year. I lived on only $250 for the whole year. It was an amazing time to be in Spain--everyone was so warm and friendly. There hadn't yet been the massive invasion of foreigners learning flamenco, so the guitar was an automatic invitation into family settings and fiestas. Guitarist wanted me to teach them Sabicas material (he was just becoming known there) and gypsies wanted to know if I knew any rock music. Those were magic times. I feel a little sorry for people going now, although I am reminded of Ulysses S. Grant's comments when he came home from a trip to Sevilla in 1878 and complained that, since his previous visit in 1876, the city had been ruined by tourism!
When I returned home I was a flamenco guitarist, and have continued working to this day. I have never been a star or a great virtuoso, just a hard working and dependable flamenco guitarist. I don't much enjoy playing, or even listening to, solo guitar, but I have had to do a lot of it to make a living. I have worked mostly in the USA--in major theaters in almost every state--as well as in Canada and Mexico. For a long time I returned to Spain every two or three years for a month or two and have worked there also.
JASON: Tell us of some of your favorite experiences while playing guitar.
PACO: I can't think of particularly momentous occasion at the moment, but it is always a high to work with top Spanish artists. My greatest thrill is going out onto a stage with unfamiliar high quality dancers and singers without rehearsal. That is when you feel so alive, competent, and free-- carried along on a wave of rhythm. It usually comes out well. But, if you do a second show it is often a let-down: you try to remember what you did the first time instead of living in the moment. Also, I find it impossible to do that if there is a second guitarist; it takes away the spontaneity and freedom. For me, flamenco has to be one dancer, one singer, and one guitarist. As soon as you have more than one of any of these at a time, you have choreography, not creativity.
JASON: What's the best guitar you've had the pleasure of playing?
PACO: I don't think we can name a "best" model of guitar. Guitar preference is so individual that even a great maker cannot build predictably for one person. Out of ten identical guitars, only one might be suitable for a particular person. One man's dream is another's nightmare. I like to say that, if a builder completes a lot of five guitars, one will be great and go to a celebrity, two will be very good and go to local hotshots, or maybe someone on the waiting list who happens to be around to pick it up, two will be okay and go to the waiting list, and one will be a dog and will go to a music store in the USA, or will be sold to the general public in the builder's shop. So I don't care who makes my guitar. As long as it has a low, soft action and all the strings have equal volume, and it has wooden pegs--for ease of changing strings and novelty for the audience--I don't care much what it looks like or how loud it is (God gave us microphones to take care of that).
JASON: Jaleo magazine was a great magazine that covered the flamenco scene with correspondents from all over the world. There were interviews, reviews, articles and more. Someone should scan each and every page of that mag and archive it digitally. Tell us about the magazine and about being the editor. How long did it run? What are some of the best articles you remember? Can we order back issues of Jaleo magazine?
PACO: I am down to one complete set of Jaleo, so no back issues are available. I get frequent requests for them and I have given permission many times for others to archive them on a web site, but I don't know if it has been done. But that isn't too big of a loss, because Jaleo was a product of its time:1978-1990. It was inspired by an earlier (1960s) effort by Morre and Estela Zatania in New York. The FISL newsletter was very folksy, with hand-set type, but had excellent articles. We started very crudely with Jaleo, cutting and pasting type-written text and taking photos out to be turned into dots before pasting them in under headings made from press-on letters. By the end we were setting it on an early Macintosh. Jaleo was followed by Greg Case's Journal of Flamenco Artistry (Los Angeles) and, finally, the superb and polished Flamenco International Magazine, out of London. All of these efforts were doomed to failure by one glaring fact: flamencos don't read. That was brought home to me once after I had just finished giving a guitar performance and a fan came up to me and said excitedly, "Have you heard that Paco de Lucia is coming? I can't wait. He is my God!" I replied, "If you like him so much, you might be interested in his biography that I just published." The guy's eyes glazed over as he mumbled, "Nah, I don't read much!"
It's not really a loss that Jaleo is no longer available. Much of the content is quite dated. At least half of it dealt with local parties and performances in California. Another quarter was translations of current events in Spain. That leaves one quarter of general information that was often quite good. I am trying to collect the best of those articles as part of my next book. It's very slow going, as I am a very slow typist.
JASON: What are the difficulities in writing about flamenco?
PACO: I think being a participant in flamenco has helped me to write from an inside perspective. Too much writing by non-performers just skims over the surface. How many interviews with flamenco artists have you read where you know no more at the end than you did before you began? So I try to write about things that would interest me, and I try to get to technically interesting things.
JASON: Why are your books important to the understanding of flamenco culture and history?
PACO: My concept for the Paco de Lucia book was to let him tell his own story, in his own words, as he has told it in interviews during his long career. As far as I know Paco never collaborated directly on any biography until, perhaps, the most recent one published in Spanish. Other biographies have given the impression that Paco collaborated by using the same quotes I did, but without giving the sources. Also, since Paco's story could not be complete without including the biography of one of the most important singers in flamenco history, Camaron de la Isla, I used the same technique to try to capture something of this almost god-like figure. The underlying theme of the book is the transition from the tradition- based flamenco of the 1960s to the experimental era of the 1980s and '90s.
Carmen Amaya's story speaks for itself. If Camaron was a god, then Carmen was a goddess. So many important modern flamenco dancers call Carmen their idol and their most important influence, when they know nothing about her and have never seen her dance. But almost as interesting were the many dancers who influenced Carmen, those who came before her or were her contemporaries. These were truly colorful characters, who molded Spanish dance, and whose stories have often not been told. So I tried to weave together all of these lives, often using material published for the first time. And I included as many anecdotes as possible, trying to present flamenco information that is not generally available to those who do not read Spanish or do not have access to rare historical documents. In a broader sense, the book tells the story of flamenco's theater period, the first half of the 20th century, when Spanish and flamenco dance were molded into their modern form. Ironically, much of that development took place outside of Spain--in France, South America, and the USA. And guitarists shouldn't feel left out. I included biographies, some appearing for the first time, of legendary figures like Sabicas, Ramon Montoya, Nino Ricardo, Mario Escudero, etc
JASON: Tell us about the research process for "Queen of the Gypsies".
PACO: I have always written. Twelve years of publishing Jaleo magazine gave me a lot of practice in writing and also helped me to amass a great deal of research material. An amazing amount of the material in my books came from those magazines. And I have always been very analytical. Teaching guitarists, singers, and dancers for so many years forced me to get to the essentials of technique and artistic communication. If I have any special talent, it is the ability to analyze a lot of scattered information, identify the important points, and and bring it all together to form a conclusion. Research is like detective work. I think my most important contribution to Carmen Amaya's biography was the hours and hours I spent in library basements going through microfilms of major newspapers from around the country, searching for flamenco information from 1910 to 1964. All of that history of Spanish dance in America might have remained buried if someone with my passion for the hunt didn't come along and dig it out.
JASON: Carmen Amaya is a legendary figure who is transcending time. Carmen passed away 40 years ago and still is having an amazing impact on people. What do you think it is about her that fascinates each generation?
PACO: I think the legend of Carmen Amaya was a phenomenon created by the convergence of many factors. Her gypsy personality and lifestyle really captured the popular imagination. Her fame was created outside of Spain, where nothing like her had been seen. The outstanding feature of her dance was her intensity. That is really the impression that one came away with. It was mostly personality. One of my brothers, who has no interest in flamenco, fell in love with her from reading my book, from reading her words. Technically, she amazed people with her speed and her turns, but if you analyze her dance you see that she was pretty limited, repeating the same few moves over and over. And her footwork, although fast and powerful, was quite simple by today's standards. She is credited with being a revolutionary but, in fact, she borrowed a lot from others, including the idea of dancing in pants. But she was proof of the fact that what matters in flamenco, above all else, is what comes from inside.
JASON: Can you share with us a yet unpublished fact or legend about Carmen or Paco?
PACO: Once I finish writing about something, it is over. Burn-out. So I haven't given much further thought to either of them. The way I write, I focus on the page I am writing. The previous page is forgotten, the next page is a mystery. Writing for me is like reading: I am just as interested as my future readers to find out what will happen on the next page. When the book is finished, I know very little about its content. If you ask me a question, I have to look up the answer!
There is an interview with Carmen that came to light after I finished my book, in which she talks at length about her early life. But no great revelations, and lots of inconsistencies. Paco de Lucia was of greatest interest to me in the 1970s and early '80s, so I don't follow his doings much these days.
JASON: Flamenco first moved out of the streets and into the cafes. Now the art is evolving through international expansion and experimental fusions. Do you see a new chapter or age on the horizon?
PACO: I hate to join the list of mistaken flamenco critics who have predicted the demise of flamenco over the last century or more, but I just can't see a good future for flamenco. It is still hanging in there for now, and maybe by some miracle it will find a way to survive. After all, everyone thought it was a goner during the "opera" period of the 1930s and '40s, but then it snapped back with the severe traditional renaissance of the 1950s and '60s.
JASON: Do you think flamenco is becoming more popular internationally, and what are your thoughts on flamenco in today's emerging global village?
PACO: I'm not so sure that flamenco is gaining in popularity around the world. It is hard to top the passion for flamenco that existed in the 1960s and 70s, when even the local drugstores had flamenco records, and hard core cante anthologies were available in this country. The Gypsy Kings style flamenco and other fusions are certainly very popular. As a player of another era, I may be a bit biased, but it seems to me that flamenco is losing a lot. It is becoming homogenized like so many aspects of culture. The loss of cultural identity around the world is symbolized for me by those ubiquitous white plastic chairs that are seen in every corner of the world, even Tibetan monasteries!
With the guitar, if you take away traditional tonalities or keys, invent new chord progressions, create all new melodies, and disguise every rhythm under a rumba syncopation, what's left? I think it has become even more difficult to identify the different toques and audiences are left even more confused than they used to be. It all sounds the same. And we don't seem to hear really good falsetas anymore. It used to be that if someone came up with a really good variation, everybody else copied it and made their own version. Now it's more harmony and improvisation, and not so many good ideas that make you want to learn them.
But, on the other hand, we can't go back. Once you have experienced the tension of modern chord colors and the uplifting energy of counter rhythm, you will be bored to death by the monotony of four basic chords and a predictable, plodding rhythm. It seems to me that there is a desirable middle ground, as exemplified by the best modern accompanists--modern playing grounded in tradition. Some good examples we have seen here in California in recent years include Antonio Jero and Paco Fernandez. I think we could make these same observations about the dance and cante.
The other problem is the gradual loss of the flamenco environment, the source of the art. It is in danger of becoming an academic art form like ballet, without the nourishment from people who live a flamenco life. If you went to Triana as recently as thirty years ago, you were immersed in flamenco. It still existed on the streets, in the bars and in the family patios. Now it is all upscale shops and condos. I know it still exists in places and in certain families, but is less and less every day. The technical level of the art now requires dedication to hours of study. Thirty years ago almost anybody could play the guitar at the level of the best. It just wasn't that hard. It was hard to get the knowledge, but the technique was not that difficult. Now it is impossible unless you dedicate your life to it. Mario Maya once summed up the modern situation when he said something about how, in the old days, when you met up with dancer in the street, you would go off to a bar to smoke, have drinks, and hopefully enjoy some spontaneous flamenco. But now, when you encounter a dancer in the street he is eating an apple and says he has to get to the studio to work out!
JASON: Besides giving us two biographies in english, of two of the most important figures in flamenco, you also made tapes that you sell. Tell us about those.
PACO: "Ritmos Flamencos" was made at the request of some local dancers who were frustrated because their dance teachers weren't really explaining the rhythms, how to count them and do palmas for them. So I put together this little tape with explanations of the major styles and samples of music to practice to. It caught on and has been a big seller for years. It was primarily aimed at lower level students, but many intermediate dancers have found it helpful. Then I realized that it could also be helpful to guitarists, so I included a sheet with cejilla placement and chords for all the songs. And it could really be of use to non- performing aficionados who would like to enhance their enjoyment of flamenco. I have been asked many times to make it available on CD, and I might do it, but I put it on tape because it is so much easier to stop and rewind for study.
JASON: Let me know when you put in on cd. I think a lot of us will buy it then. What's next?
PACO: I have two books in progress, whose futures are uncertain (time and money). One is an historical novel based on the life of the great singer Antonio Chacon. The other is a kind of "flamenco reader", a collection of all sorts of flamencobilia. Part encyclopedia, part collection of best articles from past publications, part "how-to-do-it" manual, and part controversial opinions and quotes, and some things just for fun. Let me leave you with an example of the latter. It will either make you think, make you laugh, or make you angry:
The Five "E"s of Excellence in Flamenco Dance. Here is how I judge a flamenco dancer. I ask myself, is this dance: 1) Entertaining: creative, original, surprising, holding your attention? 2) Exciting: energetic, dynamic, rhythmic, keeping you on the edge of your seat? 3) Emotional: intense, exploring a variety of emotion, drawing you in? 4) Erotic: the man is masculine, the woman is feminine, movements and dress are sensuous? 5 Ethnic: the costume and movements are essentially true to Spanish or Gypsy tradition?
Then I assign a score of 1-10 to each category and add them all together. Over 40 is a good score. You would be surprised by how many well-known dancers fail this test. Examples of those who have performed in California in recent years and done very well are Juana Amaya and Andres Pena.
JASON: In your mind, what makes flamenco, flamenco?
PACO: I don't think I can sum it up in a few words, or go on and on about all the elements that make it unique, but when I think of flamenco the words that first come to mind are: intensity, guts, power, sensuosity-- whether speaking of dance, song, or guitar. Just my opinion.
JASON: What's the funniest flamenco joke you've ever heard?
PACO: I tried to come with up with flamenco jokes for my next book, but couldn't find any. There are a lot of funny people in flamenco and comical situations and anecdotes, but not so many jokes.
Jason would like to give an extra special thanks to Paco for this extensive and important interview. Send your flamenco jokes to flamencoshows...yahoo.com.
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Queen of the Gypsies, page 17
In a plaza on the waterfront, where Las Ramblas ends at the
docks, was the restaurant Las Siete Puertas. A favorite of the upper classes, it was frequented by millionaires, shipping magnates, Nobel Laureates, artists of all sorts, and elegant women. The owner often permitted gypsies to perform at the tables, and it was there that Carmen first began to make a name for herself. On a tile floor, while dodging waiters as they came and went, Carmelilla danced in her bare feet, letting herself be carried by the rhythm of the guitar as if possessed by some internal torment, her eyes looking off into the distance, her hair falling over her glistening face, her mind in some other place, oblivious to the hustle and bustle of the busy salon.
The customers paid her in dollars, francs, sterling pounds money she hadn't the slightest idea how to use. While she danced, El Chino kept his eye on the door, watching for the Guardia Civil [police]. He knew it could be very costly to him if he were caught making a child work at night. "When she finishes her dance, Carmen Amaya, the daughter of El Chino, raffles off, at ten centimos for each number, tickets for the drawing of two bottles of good Spanish wine that the owner of Las Siete Puertas gives to the Amayas each night. If some customer makes the mistake of giving a peseta [roughly equivalent to a dollar at that time], under the illusion that he will receive change, he is surprised to see that the little girl who dances as if in a trance has no change, or after a few mumbles words that the customer cannot understand, she says thank you for the gift of a peseta."
Purchase your copy here
https://www.amazon.com/Queen-Gypsies-Legend-Carmen-Amaya/dp/0964637413