Jocelyn Ajami

SF Flamenco interview with director of Queen of the Gypsies

November 2002

Jocelyn Ajami is an award winning filmmaker and fee paid speaker in conjunction with screenings of her videos. She was born in Caracas, Venezuela and speaks five languages. Ajami lives and works in Boston. Her new film "Queen of the Gypsies" a documentary on the legendary Carmen Amaya, has just premiered in Boston and is available for purchase on video.

Jason Engelund: Tell us about yourself and how you came to documentary film.

Jocelyn Ajami: I was a painter for many years and during the Gulf War, I decided that I needed to expand my audience by doing socially conscious work with a broader message. As a painter, I was preaching to the converted with very limited possibilities of bringing other cultures and political issues to a larger audience. My first ten minute piece was a simple informational video called JIHAD. I was the first person in America to treat the topic on video from the Muslim point of

view. I had never met any Muslims so this was a great revelation, but I knew through my architectural studies that JIHAD did not mean Holy War. It means struggle the struggle to be a better person, the struggle to get up in the morning. Its lowest meaning is the right to defend oneself, and only if attacked, thus just war. It was obvious through these interviews with Muslim leaders in New England, that Saddam's war was anti-Islamic. So that is how it all started.

JE: Flamenco has been called an international art form. In our current political context with 9.11 and now Iraq, do you see a connection to flamenco?

JA: Flamenco is evidence that you cannot crush the spirit of a people. Through Flamenco, a persecuted and enslaved people, the Gypsies of Spain, preserved their culture and then shared it with the rest of the world. In light of the conflict unleashed in our country with the events of 9/11 Flamenco is proof that art can act as a guardian of the spirit. Passion, duende and art can defy any act of terrorism.

JE: Share more of your thoughts about duende and art as defiance.

JA: Art is often accused of being impotent in light of political clashes and tragedies. Without a doubt, if you are starving to death, listening to Flamenco will not save you at that moment. So we have to have a sense of immediate priorities: feed the starving and defend the vulnerable, but after that there are the larger issues concerning the survival of values and of culture. Furthermore, what is the point of survival if there is nothing to survive for? In the case of Flamenco, which is a kind of Spanish Blues , the Gypsies had been enslaved and persecuted for over three hundred years in Spain. Their language and music were banned. Flamenco became their cultural; cry , their memory and their passion for expression and freedom. This art form which is the voice of a people, of Gypsies and of non Gypsies in Andalucia, (who represented the most marginalized groups of the land) has survived to be identified with the very national spirit of Spain. Here, Art has preserved a culture and defied the annihilating power of ethnic cleansing. It is proof of the cultural potency of Art. In the same manner, Jazz, The Blues and Gospel, created by the lowest and most persecuted members of society have not only survived to preserve an entire folk history, but their persistent passion elevated each one to a High Art, identifiable with the great accomplishments of a nation. For many years Jazz was not considered to be classic art . Today no one would dare argue that. Due to the passion, duende and persistent cry of a group of African Americans, these art forms have not only preserved a culture, but have become identified, pridefully, with the American national identity which originally rejected them. This is the same for Flamenco.

But the issue of duende is even more complicated, from performer to performer. It is that force which so moves you upon seeing a performance that you shudder and get goose bumps. You feel that you are an accomplice in a miracle. When an artist creates with such veracity, and passion that the art surpasses them, there is an immediate understanding that takes place between the audience and the performer, because they have both witnessed something electric that is bigger than themselves. That is duende. By extension, duende teaches us that culture lives beyond our tiny ego and becomes part of the miracle of the ages.

JE: As I am a painter who works with flamenco, I sometimes feel like a bit of an outsider. I feel that the purest feeling of flamenco happens only when one performs flamenco. What is your experience with making films about flamenco?

JA: I think you do have to become part of the culture one way or another. Even though I only took one year of Flamenco classes, it gave me a conceptual foundation from which to understand the art form and from there I just started to hang out with the artists. Flamenco is indeed a way of life, and it is reflected in the way people talk, walk, play etc. Needless to say, I also took several trips to Spain and met with family members and company members, who knew Carmen. I also studied and continue to study the history, as if it were my own. It helps to fall in love with the art form.

JE: How do you work to transform social consciousness with your films? Beyond strictly documenting, is there a process, or style that you use?

JA: There is no such thing as strict documentation since you are responsible for a selection process which is in itself a point of view. My primary goal is to bring to the public a certain awareness mediated with information and human interest. Then it is my hope that this process will open the door for further revelation or study.

JE: For audiences new to flamenco, how do you work to have them truly feel or understand flamenco?

JA: I think we can never underestimate the power of clarity and simplicity. Flamenco like Jazz is a very complex art and for the uninitiated is important to have the basics, I try to state the basics in an accessible manner without pandering and from there I try to tell a story which the audience can run with, should they wish to.

JE: How did your interest in flamenco start?

JA: Having been born in Venezuela, I knew and liked Flamenco, but I really did not understand musically or historically its profound significance. I had just finished a documentary on Palestinians and Jews, when a friend of mine invited me to a concert in a small church in Cambridge. I really did not want to go, but I went. Omayra Amaya was performing. I sat in the audience, I watched her students perform and they were fine, but I was tired and I wanted to go home. Then Omayra came on stage and started to dance; the power, grit geometry and sensuality of her dance were so powerful, I decided to stay. I was totally captivated and that very same day, I went backstage and said to her. I am going to make a film about you . It was 1995, she looked at me like I was crazy, but I started shooting within two weeks and taking Flamenco classes myself. This experience led to the making of GYPSY HEART, finished in 1998. From there I started doing extensive research and following Omayra s family and her legendary great aunt, Carmen Amaya. I has been a seven year journey to make Queen of the Gypsies.

JE: 7 years in the making! How does it feel to have accomplished this film?

JA: The film was 4 years in the making, but I have been following Flamenco and the Amayas for seven. I feel gratified that I was able to preserve a corner of history, but relieved also, that a heavy weight of responsibility has been lifted from my shoulders. The work has to live without me now.

JE: What is your favorite, or the most peculiar, or most fascinating thing you learned about Carmen Amaya when creating the film "Queen of the Gypsies"?

JA: I was fascinated by the fact that she was multitalented. She was a great singer and actress and God knows what she might have accomplished had she lived beyond her 50 years. I was also astounded by the quality of her character. Her art matched her goodness. Carmen Amaya defined success through the excellence of her art and the integrity of her character.

JE: What's your favorite flamenco movie?

JA: For pure Flamenco, Carlos Saura s Flamenco . For Storytelling, Gypsy culture and Flamenco, Francisco Rovira Beleta s, Los Tarantos.

Queen of the Gypsies is available on DVD. Click here to visit Gypsy Heart Productions

Jason Engelund is a painter, filmmaker and the director of SF Flamenco.

Jason works for the Center for Art and Public Life at C.C.A.C